This is an interesting interview with Ray Ozzie, Microsoft’s chief architect (linked from Ryan Stewart’s blog). I am certain that Ray Ozzie has many talents, but I think that he is in an impossible situation.
Here is a quote from the interview:
The guidance that we are giving the development community — and the guidance that we use in-house — is to look at applications through the following lens: When the business model behind that app means that you have to get it everywhere, we call that the “universal web application pattern.” When the most important thing is the experience that the user has with that application and you might be willing to trade off the breadth of the web for the richness of that experience, we call that an “experience first pattern.”
I call this the “you must be dreaming pattern”:
Flex can do all the “experience” things that WPF can do like, scaling, rotations, animations, and 3D – what else is there? And it can run in almost any browser. And (with Apollo), it can run on almost any desktop. With Adobe, you get the “universal web application pattern” *and* the “experience first pattern” both together in *one big happy pattern*. Microsoft needs to make two patterns because they don’t have a clue as to where they are going.
Then there is the “let’s confuse the developers pattern”:
The .Net libraries contain *two* complete user interface libraries – one based on WinForms (Win32 API) and one based on WPF (vector graphics). And to make life interesting, a lot of the components have exactly the same names (eg Button, ListBox, etc) even although they are totally incompatible. Ok – maybe a smart developer should be able to figure it out (old style vs new style). But then, there is a third set of components (WPF/e) which is supposed to play a big role, but nobody will say what is going to be in the libraries (* because it’s still a secret *).
Adobe has *one* library for *everything* (desktop, browsers, all platforms) and *one* language for *everything*. Why, it’s so simple, that I actually have time to write code.
Finally, there is the “let’s reach out and disable our developers pattern”:
Microsoft was late with Vista and WPF/e, but they has no problem releasing WGA, which immediately declared that the Windows XP machine that I used for testing was running pirated software (which was wrong, because I purchased and installed XP myself). I couldn’t find the original CD, and I couldn’t use the unused XP CD from my new machine which I had just upgraded to Vista. But, that is still not the full story.
Because, WGA now thinks that the XP machine has pirated software, I couldn’t install IE7 or the WinFX 3.0 libraries. That is, I couldn’t use that machine anymore for testing .Net.
However, when I tried testing the software that I wrote in Flash, *on the same machine*, everything worked perfectly!!
In 1983, IBM was their own worst enemy – arrogance, incompatible products and endless licencing fees.
Microsoft in 2007 is making exactly the same mistakes.
In 1983, I started moving to Unix – and today, I’m starting to move to Flash.
Microsoft have only themselves and their greed to blame. When you live in a bubble for so long you have no idea the world around you has changed, and that what you think and do no longer appeals to people…..so what do you do? Take a fresh look and change? Or pour money into marketing campaigns to make people “think” you’ve changed?
Comment by Dirk Gently — April 7, 2007 @ 3:08 pm
How does Flex handle issues of copy and paste between apps ?
Comment by Chui — April 8, 2007 @ 10:14 am
Chui,
When you have the Apollo runtime installed, you should be able to “cut and paste” between apps – a least for text.
When I build my Desktop Window Manager in Apollo, I can add some more features.
Comment by pfisk — April 8, 2007 @ 2:24 pm
[...] Peter Fisk is one of my favorite guys to read. He’s converting a Smalltalk application from .NET to Flash/Flex and blogging about the process. He’s one of the few who can talk authoritatively on the two subjects and he has some good quotes about why he’s choosing Flash now: Flex can do all the “experience” things that WPF can do like, scaling, rotations, animations, and 3D – what else is there? And it can run in almost any browser. And (with Apollo), it can run on almost any desktop. With Adobe, you get the “universal web application pattern” *and* the “experience first pattern” both together in *one big happy pattern*. Microsoft needs to make two patterns because they don’t have a clue as to where they are going. Adobe has *one* library for *everything* (desktop, browsers, all platforms) and *one* language for *everything*. Why, it’s so simple, that I actually have time to write code. [...]
Pingback by Ryan Stewart - Rich Internet Application Mountaineer » Peter Fisk on Microsoft’s Shortcomings — April 8, 2007 @ 6:39 pm
This is really complete BS. Let’s count the ways:
1) Apollo CANNOT do all the experience things that WPF can do. Flex sure as hell can’t do 3D. Just because you can write your own 3D engine on top of the platform and get crappy 1 FPS animations comparable to wolfenstien 3D doesn’t mean you really support 3D. WPF is real GPU accelerated 3D, not some hacked together solution that isn’t useful for much in the real world. Yes, Flash is a powerful platform for building experiences, but throwing 3D in the list of things it can do is a complete load of BS.
2) Secondly, .NET does contain 2 sets of controls. This is true. However, comparing .NET to Apollo is really only possible if you are completely ignorant or smoking crack. Apollo cannot do 10% of the things that the .NET framework can do. What’s more, WPF and the original .NET control model are not in any way incompatible. You can make use of both in a single application if you want to. It is really more about options and backwards compatibility than it is about forcing you to learn two different programming models. If you want to just learn one, you are perfectly fine learning one. If you want to use both, use both.
3) Thirdly, WPF/E is not a secret. It’s in an open beta and you can download the bits today and find out exactly what is inside the bits. No one is hiding anything, you can go on MSDN and find the docs without even downloading the bits if you really want to see how it compares to WPF.
4) Fourthly, WPF/E is by no means late. They announced a release date and just announced the project what, a year ago?
5) Fifthly, you imply that being forced to use a single inferior language that people today only use for web applications because it is there only option is somehow a good thing. Javascript is not a suitable language for large scale development. It never has been and never will be. It’s better than nothing, but being forced to use it certainly isn’t a good thing like you imply. Additionally, you are implying that Adobe’s solution somehow provides a more unified approach than the Microsoft one, when in fact, Microsoft’s approach is far more unifying. Apollo will never offer the same amount of functionality or performance that the .NET framework offers (you aren’t going to be coding the back end of your application in Actionscript). Choosing Apollo for any decent sized application will not mean that you have a single programming language. On the contrary, if you create any application that does anything on the server, you are going to have to know AT LEAST two different programming languages should you chose to develop with Adobe tools. Microsoft is offering the only real solution that lets you use the same exact language for fully fledged desktop applications, lightweight web delivered applications, and server side components.
Almost every detail you have mentioned here is not true, but you sound so sure of yourself…
Comment by Jesse Ezell — April 8, 2007 @ 8:47 pm
I’m sorry, but Microsoft has just one library for everything too: it’s called .NET.
Just because they have Win32, ATL, MFC, and a billion others doesn’t mean you’re supposed to use them or that you’ll have a hard time choosing – it just means that they’ve been there for a long time and they’ve been innovating all the while.
I think it’s too early to consider Flex/Apollo a winning-horse by any means. .NET has more than proven itself as an excellent and most reliable development framework on Windows, though it’s usage on other platforms is definitely lacking. On the other hand, Adobe’s solutions seem to be a mid-way point between Java and .NET; by bringing a almost 100% cross-platform framework to the table with the aesthetics and programming appeal of Microsoft’s .NET 2.0 – yet not really taking hold of either ground well enough to be a clear winner.
Only time can tell!
Comment by Computer Guru — April 8, 2007 @ 9:05 pm
MS has been so secure and discustingly rich for such a long time they think they can change the world after their own needs and not vice versa…
This can be seen from the fact that ASP.NET Ajax is deliberately made to become a CRAPPY product!
And the reason?
They don’t want to pave the ways for “SomeOtherCompany Office On Web 2.0″!
ASP.NET Ajax is basically just a way to SLOW DOWN the development of Web 2.0 enough for them to keep floating until they’ve got an alternative… (WPF)
Sad…!!
Did someone say; “Bend over”…??
Comment by Thomas Hansen — April 8, 2007 @ 10:45 pm
*choke* You’re comparing Microsoft to Adobe, saying Adobe is less evil? That’s like comparing Mephistopheles to Lucifer. How about Adobe ports all its apps and opens its media formats to that Unix platform you’ve embraced, before we let it off so easily? Adobe is no less a predatory monopoly than Microsoft.
Comment by Penguin Pete — April 8, 2007 @ 10:54 pm
Peter,
Great read
.
I could sit here and debate things further with you on the merits of your post, but that would just turn into probably an argument of some kind.
What I will say is this, before joining Microsoft I was a Flex Developer for the past 4 years, and beyond that I was a developer in Flash. I say all of this as the time will come, one you’ve gotten past the initial “haloTheme” and you are looking branch out further into more stronger applications, applications that rely on performance and scale. Applications that also may need it’s own look and feel, to compliment a brands choice of colours or texture.
There will also come a day when you extnd your team by x, x being any number of co-developers. This will hurt, and you’ll find limited supply in terms of support in this regard as it probably means you’ll be the first within your region. You’ll fire off an email to Adobe, whom will be eager to help but don’t expect ninja’s flying through your window to do such as this as they’ll not be there unless it’s a great PR case study or something along those lines.
When all of these days come, and they will trust me as many before you have brushed it aside, only 6 months from now when they really need to push FLEX they come back and agree. If this day comes, I want you to drop me a line via my email.
Until then, sorry you feel the way you do about Microsoft’s approach to things, I respectfully disagree and I’ll leave you with one thought:
With C# for example, I have a passport into all of Microsoft’s technology stacks, with ActionScript I have a passport to Flex.
-
Scott Barnes
Developer Evangelist
Microsoft.
Comment by Scott Barnes — April 9, 2007 @ 1:13 am
Shame on you! How dare you speak out against the clothes that the Emperor is not wearing ? Are you blind to the flowing trains that His acolytes are not holding up ?
When you speak out against His Majesty you are shattering this fools dreams; How very inconsiderate of you.
Comment by Joe — April 9, 2007 @ 1:50 am
Losing Its Way! NO apostrophe! Honest.
Comment by @T — April 9, 2007 @ 1:54 am
[...] This post is a reflection and clarification of my previous remarks about Microsoft losing its way. [...]
Pingback by Some Calmer Words about Microsoft « 21st Century Smalltalk — April 9, 2007 @ 3:16 am
Hold it! not yet. Microsoft is actually doing really well, look at the ventures in Bangalore India and also in China, what they doing is getting out of this country as soon as possible, because the government will destroy it. It is a good thing that should have a little compromise with the government, because it is so educational oriented and it has so much vision for the future.
Comment by rydlp15 — April 9, 2007 @ 7:51 pm
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Comment by x — April 9, 2007 @ 10:04 pm
[...] How Microsoft Is Losing It’s Way This is an interesting interview with Ray Ozzie, Microsoft’s chief architect (linked from Ryan Stewart’s […] [...]
Pingback by Top Posts « WordPress.com — April 9, 2007 @ 11:58 pm
Utter hogwash.
Adobe is no better than MS anyway. I’m stuck using Outlook and Photoshop in the Office, and I freakin’ LOVE IT!
Comment by Brent — April 10, 2007 @ 12:32 am
From what I read today (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2007/apr07/04-15WPFEPR.mspx) it appears as if the newest incarnation of WPF/E will contain support for .NET after all. Or as I not reading between the lines :-/
Comment by gregarican — April 16, 2007 @ 7:14 pm
I have been trying all day to find confirmation that the .Net runtime libraries are going to be included in the release. So far, no luck.
We’ll just have to wait until MIX07 on April 30.
Comment by pfisk — April 16, 2007 @ 9:29 pm
[...] but didn’t follow it closely because it was Windows only. However, Peter has since noted that Microsoft is losing it’s way and more significantly, he’s ported Vista Smalltalk to Apollo and Flash so now it can run [...]
Pingback by Croquet 2 Play » Evolution In Cyberspace: The Smalltalk Meme — November 6, 2007 @ 6:00 am
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have been trying all day to find confirmation that the .Net runtime libraries are going to be included in the release. So far, no luck.
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